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	<title>Comments for Daily Encounter</title>
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	<description>Advice, Homebrew Rules, Encounters &#38; DnD Ramblings</description>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by Michael Cugley</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6293</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Cugley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6293</guid>
		<description>Personally, I thought Athasian Dwarves (and Elves, and Halflings, for that matter) &lt;i&gt;were&lt;/i&gt; fairly different.  No Big Long Beards, for one - Athasian Dwarves are completely hairless.  

Athasian Elves are savage desert nomads.

Athasian Halflings are feral cannibals - except the ones who aren&#039;t, if you ever find them.

Okay, they all had a monoculture within that, but at least they are different from their Forgotten Realms counterparts...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I thought Athasian Dwarves (and Elves, and Halflings, for that matter) <i>were</i> fairly different.  No Big Long Beards, for one &#8211; Athasian Dwarves are completely hairless.  </p>
<p>Athasian Elves are savage desert nomads.</p>
<p>Athasian Halflings are feral cannibals &#8211; except the ones who aren&#8217;t, if you ever find them.</p>
<p>Okay, they all had a monoculture within that, but at least they are different from their Forgotten Realms counterparts&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by The Weekly Assembly: Murmurs From DDXP &#124; The Gamer Assembly</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6291</link>
		<dc:creator>The Weekly Assembly: Murmurs From DDXP &#124; The Gamer Assembly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6291</guid>
		<description>[...] Race and Culture in D&amp;D by digitaldraco at Daily Encounter makes the case for separating race and culture to allow more flexibility and PC options during character creation. Dwarves can like swords and bows too. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Race and Culture in D&amp;D by digitaldraco at Daily Encounter makes the case for separating race and culture to allow more flexibility and PC options during character creation. Dwarves can like swords and bows too. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by Nat</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6289</link>
		<dc:creator>Nat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6289</guid>
		<description>I have to speak up on behalf of Draco&#039;s mix-and-match idea. It&#039;s always bugged me a bit that half-elf (and more recently, half-orc) have become entrenched, traditional races, but we don&#039;t get the option of any other half-races? I&#039;ve used the mul from Dark Sun as a half-dwarf race in my own campaign, but that&#039;s as far as it goes. In addition, it&#039;s always half-human, half-X. What about the rare elf/dwarf love story? I&#039;d love to roleplay that character.

In addition, I strongly agree that 4e really punishes playing against stereotypes. I enjoy making powerful, effective characters, as do most of the people I play with, but I get tired of elven archers and dwarven fighters and halfling rogues. Twice now I&#039;ve sat down to make a dwarven rogue, and given up in frustration at the inability to make such a character that can keep up with the stereotypical characters next to me at the table. A bonus to Con and axe proficiency don&#039;t help on a character that uses Dex and daggers.

I&#039;ve considered separating bonuses from race entirely, and just letting my players put two +2&#039;s anywhere they want, the argument being that training and individual characteristics vastly outweigh racial norms. I&#039;d likely have a much higher strength and lower intelligence if I&#039;d spent my life playing sports and working out instead of reading books. If 5e is really going to be modular, I&#039;d love to see optional character creation rules that allow for mixing and matching as Draco suggests, or rules that use both race and culture to determine starting benefits, or a creation tree system similar to the one in Heroes of the Feywild but more impactful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to speak up on behalf of Draco&#8217;s mix-and-match idea. It&#8217;s always bugged me a bit that half-elf (and more recently, half-orc) have become entrenched, traditional races, but we don&#8217;t get the option of any other half-races? I&#8217;ve used the mul from Dark Sun as a half-dwarf race in my own campaign, but that&#8217;s as far as it goes. In addition, it&#8217;s always half-human, half-X. What about the rare elf/dwarf love story? I&#8217;d love to roleplay that character.</p>
<p>In addition, I strongly agree that 4e really punishes playing against stereotypes. I enjoy making powerful, effective characters, as do most of the people I play with, but I get tired of elven archers and dwarven fighters and halfling rogues. Twice now I&#8217;ve sat down to make a dwarven rogue, and given up in frustration at the inability to make such a character that can keep up with the stereotypical characters next to me at the table. A bonus to Con and axe proficiency don&#8217;t help on a character that uses Dex and daggers.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve considered separating bonuses from race entirely, and just letting my players put two +2&#8242;s anywhere they want, the argument being that training and individual characteristics vastly outweigh racial norms. I&#8217;d likely have a much higher strength and lower intelligence if I&#8217;d spent my life playing sports and working out instead of reading books. If 5e is really going to be modular, I&#8217;d love to see optional character creation rules that allow for mixing and matching as Draco suggests, or rules that use both race and culture to determine starting benefits, or a creation tree system similar to the one in Heroes of the Feywild but more impactful.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by KosherInfidel</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6288</link>
		<dc:creator>KosherInfidel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6288</guid>
		<description>@anacetogrind: I love to design I depth settings (anth/humanities ba), but do payers truly want any of this?  I think the razor would dictate they want race, class, maybe a god/religion name and adventure; most probably could not care less for such detail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@anacetogrind: I love to design I depth settings (anth/humanities ba), but do payers truly want any of this?  I think the razor would dictate they want race, class, maybe a god/religion name and adventure; most probably could not care less for such detail.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by Anaxetogrind</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6287</link>
		<dc:creator>Anaxetogrind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 00:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6287</guid>
		<description>@Obsidian Good point on species vs race.

On the rolling vs. etc. Matter method 1 is listed as std array, method 2 point buy and method 3 rolling as far as default method er who can say but I will admit the lack of a random generator and my experiences point to point buy as the preferred method ( pun not intended).

The method you propose for separating race and culture seems more like a stylized background/theme component. Rather than a display of culture.

Traditions, general moral fiber viewed thru law written and of the group, and long term goals of a society or organization are the cornerstones of a culture. Dnd racial stero-types peripherally brush these but more thru the &quot;Play this race if you want...&quot; sections and fluff than via actual mechanics. In past editions this was more prevalent but 4E has tabled much of this into feats. 

@Obsidian the Kingdoms of Kalamar 4E setting is styled this way with names for each god based on race, location and language. The book is a great resource for mining ideas but a daunting set of lists to memorize for the average player and Dm. Though I believe this adds to realism I also find it impractical for it to ever be mainstream in wotc production plans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Obsidian Good point on species vs race.</p>
<p>On the rolling vs. etc. Matter method 1 is listed as std array, method 2 point buy and method 3 rolling as far as default method er who can say but I will admit the lack of a random generator and my experiences point to point buy as the preferred method ( pun not intended).</p>
<p>The method you propose for separating race and culture seems more like a stylized background/theme component. Rather than a display of culture.</p>
<p>Traditions, general moral fiber viewed thru law written and of the group, and long term goals of a society or organization are the cornerstones of a culture. Dnd racial stero-types peripherally brush these but more thru the &#8220;Play this race if you want&#8230;&#8221; sections and fluff than via actual mechanics. In past editions this was more prevalent but 4E has tabled much of this into feats. </p>
<p>@Obsidian the Kingdoms of Kalamar 4E setting is styled this way with names for each god based on race, location and language. The book is a great resource for mining ideas but a daunting set of lists to memorize for the average player and Dm. Though I believe this adds to realism I also find it impractical for it to ever be mainstream in wotc production plans.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by ObsidianCrane</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6286</link>
		<dc:creator>ObsidianCrane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2012 00:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6286</guid>
		<description>@Axetogrind 4E doesn&#039;t have point buy or arrays as its default but dice rolls. I&#039;m not sure why the character builder hides dice rolls so much. Incidentally I know people used point buy as far back as 2E from the arguments about using it in 3E.

On Race.... curiously enough from an entirely biological perspective elves, humans, and orcs are all the same species (they can breed and the children are fertile) which makes race a useful term in dnd. ;)

Aside from scientific pedantry I would very much like to see culture and race separated. The core could present them as follows:
Elves
Some fluff about elves living in wandering tribes in forests.
Racial Abilities
- Ability Score Modifiers
- Elven Accuracy (or something like it)
Elven Forest Tribe Culture
The typical bow etc bonuses for elves.

Dwarves, halflings, and gnomes would then have specific Culture packages as well to reflect their stereotyped background fluff. Humans could then have 2 or 3 culture options (City Folk, Villager, Tribesman). Half-orcs can then have a couple of options (City Folk, Tribesman, Savage Orc Tribe), and similarly Half-Elves might have (City Folk, Villager, Elven Forest Tribe).

Finally there can be a note that any culture can be taken by any character with the DM&#039;s permission.

Setting books can then introduce culture packages for the distinct cultures of the setting along with their typical races. Other races would need DM concent to choose that culture.

Eg Cormyrean Noble (Human), Dalelands (Any),  Myth Drannor Court (Elf)

Another good thing about cultures is you can, if appropriate have more languages. Dale Tongue  might be a different language to Cormyrean. All PCs might know Common (Trade Tongue), but regional languages work still because everyone from the region gets the language through their culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Axetogrind 4E doesn&#8217;t have point buy or arrays as its default but dice rolls. I&#8217;m not sure why the character builder hides dice rolls so much. Incidentally I know people used point buy as far back as 2E from the arguments about using it in 3E.</p>
<p>On Race&#8230;. curiously enough from an entirely biological perspective elves, humans, and orcs are all the same species (they can breed and the children are fertile) which makes race a useful term in dnd. <img src='http://dailyencounter.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Aside from scientific pedantry I would very much like to see culture and race separated. The core could present them as follows:<br />
Elves<br />
Some fluff about elves living in wandering tribes in forests.<br />
Racial Abilities<br />
- Ability Score Modifiers<br />
- Elven Accuracy (or something like it)<br />
Elven Forest Tribe Culture<br />
The typical bow etc bonuses for elves.</p>
<p>Dwarves, halflings, and gnomes would then have specific Culture packages as well to reflect their stereotyped background fluff. Humans could then have 2 or 3 culture options (City Folk, Villager, Tribesman). Half-orcs can then have a couple of options (City Folk, Tribesman, Savage Orc Tribe), and similarly Half-Elves might have (City Folk, Villager, Elven Forest Tribe).</p>
<p>Finally there can be a note that any culture can be taken by any character with the DM&#8217;s permission.</p>
<p>Setting books can then introduce culture packages for the distinct cultures of the setting along with their typical races. Other races would need DM concent to choose that culture.</p>
<p>Eg Cormyrean Noble (Human), Dalelands (Any),  Myth Drannor Court (Elf)</p>
<p>Another good thing about cultures is you can, if appropriate have more languages. Dale Tongue  might be a different language to Cormyrean. All PCs might know Common (Trade Tongue), but regional languages work still because everyone from the region gets the language through their culture.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by &#187; Race and Culture in DnD Team Valkyrie FTW - Critically Thinking about Geek Culture</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6285</link>
		<dc:creator>&#187; Race and Culture in DnD Team Valkyrie FTW - Critically Thinking about Geek Culture</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 19:05:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6285</guid>
		<description>[...] Really good discussion about the problems of tying race and culture together in DnD: The basic “problem” is this: When you pick a race in D&amp;D, you’re also getting a pre-packaged culture with that choice. This happens because all races in D&amp;D that are not human have a single monoculture that is assumed to be true and consistent across both space and time. You can see the effect of this assumption in “racial” mechanics. All elves, everywhere, know something about nature. All dwarves, ever, will know how to wield a warhammer or an axe. Those are not really things that are affected by being born a elf or a dwarf; they are the results of the elf and dwarf monocultures. Now, if you want to play a dwarf with a hammer, that’s fine. You are rewarded with those benefits for playing to the stereotype. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Really good discussion about the problems of tying race and culture together in DnD: The basic “problem” is this: When you pick a race in D&amp;D, you’re also getting a pre-packaged culture with that choice. This happens because all races in D&amp;D that are not human have a single monoculture that is assumed to be true and consistent across both space and time. You can see the effect of this assumption in “racial” mechanics. All elves, everywhere, know something about nature. All dwarves, ever, will know how to wield a warhammer or an axe. Those are not really things that are affected by being born a elf or a dwarf; they are the results of the elf and dwarf monocultures. Now, if you want to play a dwarf with a hammer, that’s fine. You are rewarded with those benefits for playing to the stereotype. [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by KosherInfidel</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6284</link>
		<dc:creator>KosherInfidel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:25:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6284</guid>
		<description>Maybe this is where themes can play a better role, supplanting basic racial identity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe this is where themes can play a better role, supplanting basic racial identity.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by mmaranda</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6283</link>
		<dc:creator>mmaranda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 14:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6283</guid>
		<description>You do make some good points like is it appropriate to give a fantasy race a bonus to a weapon type because they are that race. These mechanical bonuses haven&#039;t always been in the game and so far as I recall aren&#039;t in D&amp;D today. But I do understand your not wanting to see these kinds of bonuses because they give a race golden handcuffs.

Recent editions of D&amp;D have provided some races are provided with automatic proficiency in weapons which if a player chooses to ignore doesn&#039;t generally affect the player in a negative, way most of the time.

Other editions of AD&amp;D generally avoided this, possibly intentionally or coincidentally, provided races with benefits that generally seemed either &quot;biological&quot; or mystical. This is often more palatable given the creation mythologies of these races, the whole made in Corellon&#039;s image type of thing.

I think this religious aspect having a patron deity or pantheon helps to explain some of the mono-culture that is also addressed in the article. It would probably be much easier to envision a culture that stay more consistent across a world if there are physical/deific manifestations the ideals of a fantasy race. 

However one aspect isn&#039;t addressed why do human&#039;s not have a patron as well? That is a hole that has yet to be addressed and I don&#039;t think I can right now. But all of these aspects help show this isn&#039;t a cut and dry easily solved problem for D&amp;D. There are many pros and cons to each way of looking at it and eventually one personal preference will have to be implemented.

I hope I don&#039;t sound contrarian you had some things that made me think and hopefully I addressed some justification for why things have been presented the way they have.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You do make some good points like is it appropriate to give a fantasy race a bonus to a weapon type because they are that race. These mechanical bonuses haven&#8217;t always been in the game and so far as I recall aren&#8217;t in D&amp;D today. But I do understand your not wanting to see these kinds of bonuses because they give a race golden handcuffs.</p>
<p>Recent editions of D&amp;D have provided some races are provided with automatic proficiency in weapons which if a player chooses to ignore doesn&#8217;t generally affect the player in a negative, way most of the time.</p>
<p>Other editions of AD&amp;D generally avoided this, possibly intentionally or coincidentally, provided races with benefits that generally seemed either &#8220;biological&#8221; or mystical. This is often more palatable given the creation mythologies of these races, the whole made in Corellon&#8217;s image type of thing.</p>
<p>I think this religious aspect having a patron deity or pantheon helps to explain some of the mono-culture that is also addressed in the article. It would probably be much easier to envision a culture that stay more consistent across a world if there are physical/deific manifestations the ideals of a fantasy race. </p>
<p>However one aspect isn&#8217;t addressed why do human&#8217;s not have a patron as well? That is a hole that has yet to be addressed and I don&#8217;t think I can right now. But all of these aspects help show this isn&#8217;t a cut and dry easily solved problem for D&amp;D. There are many pros and cons to each way of looking at it and eventually one personal preference will have to be implemented.</p>
<p>I hope I don&#8217;t sound contrarian you had some things that made me think and hopefully I addressed some justification for why things have been presented the way they have.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Race &amp; Culture in Dungeons &amp; Dragons 5e/Next by KosherInfidel</title>
		<link>http://dailyencounter.net/2012/01/24/raceandcultureindnd/comment-page-1/#comment-6282</link>
		<dc:creator>KosherInfidel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2012 13:44:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dailyencounter.net/?p=2154#comment-6282</guid>
		<description>You need to check out how the table top version of Dragon Age RPG does it.  You pick a race and a background.  One has some minor bonuses (race) and the other is a chart with possible bonuses based off of a random roll, plus some stat increases, language(s), and othe ritems (background).  Much better system, creates much better, and varying characters.

WOTC:  learn from the indie games!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You need to check out how the table top version of Dragon Age RPG does it.  You pick a race and a background.  One has some minor bonuses (race) and the other is a chart with possible bonuses based off of a random roll, plus some stat increases, language(s), and othe ritems (background).  Much better system, creates much better, and varying characters.</p>
<p>WOTC:  learn from the indie games!</p>
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